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“禮法與秩序”——荀子思想國際學術研討會將于 2025年10月29日在山東蘭陵舉辦。會前，“齊魯訪學駐研計劃”訪問學者、韓國西江大學宗教學系主任、韓國宗教學院院長金在榮接受中國孔子網“漢學中西問”專訪，解讀荀子禮法思想在當代社會治理、文明對話中的現實意義。

Q:Your residency research program focuses on the comparative study of Xunzi and William James. The two represent two typical theoretical paradigms in the Eastern and Western ideological traditions respectively. The former emphasizes "education through ritual and law", while the latter highlights "pragmatism". In your opinion, what resonance points exist in the core of their thoughts, and what essential differences do they present?

中國孔子網：您的駐研計劃聚焦荀子與威廉?詹姆斯的比較研究，二者分別代表了東西方思想傳統中具有代表性的理論范式，前者注重“禮法教化”，后者強調“實用主義”，您認為二者在思想內核層面存在哪些共鳴點，又呈現出怎樣的本質差異？

ANS:Though Xunzi and James lived in differnt life context, their thoughts tended to reveal three commonalities. They both radically perceive experience as the foundation of theory or system of human life construction. For an expositon of reasonaiblity on our world, they attempted to understand and judge the experiential dimension of human life. They did not finish their inquiry on human experience in the phase of understanding and judging. Fruthermore, they tried to articulate the implementaion process of their understanding and judging as the final phase for the resolution of of diverse questions emerging in human life.

They thought that knowing process should be completed into the phase of implementation as doing. This is the distinct acme of their thoughts. They did not remain in an abstract theoretical level but pushed forward to implement or contest it in a life context whether it would operate properly for an authentic life development. In so doing, Xunzi reappropriated the value of ritual and law for the authentic operation of human activity. Similarly, James revalorized the practicality of human life. This point is eventually the momentum for him to begin to inquire a new thought, pragmatism.

The only key difference between them is about the scale for their thoughts. Xunzi is more concerned about the collectivivity of human life but James more about individuality about it. They can be complemented mutually for the further wholistic complehension of our human life and its conditions.

金在榮：盡管荀子與詹姆斯所處的生活語境不同，但其思想卻呈現出三大共性。首先，二者都徹底將“經驗”視為人類生活建構理論或體系的基礎。為闡釋世界的合理性，他們都試圖理解并評判人類生活的經驗維度。其次，他們對人類經驗的探究并未止步于理解與評判階段，而是進一步闡明這些理解與評判的實踐過程，將其作為解決人類生活中各類問題的最終環節。

二者都認為，認知過程必須推進到“行”的實踐階段才算完成，這是二者思想最顯著的精華部分。他們不滿足于停留在抽象的理論層面，而是將理論推向生活語境中去實踐、去檢驗，看其能否切實推動真實生活的發展。正是基于此，荀子重新發掘了“禮”與“法”對人類活動有效運行的價值；同理，詹姆斯也重塑了人類生活“實用性”的重要性，而這一點正是他開創實用主義這一新思想的動因。

二者唯一的核心差異在于思想關懷的范圍。荀子更關注人類生活的“群體性”，而詹姆斯則更側重“個體性”。二者可以相互補充，助力我們更全面地理解人類生活及其存在狀態。

Q:The modern transformation of traditional thoughts is a core issue concerned by the academic community. How do you balance the traditional core of Xunzi's thoughts and their modern interpretation in your research?

中國孔子網：傳統思想的現代轉化是學界關注的核心議題，您在研究中如何處理荀子思想的傳統內核與現代詮釋之間的平衡？

ANS:Xunzi’s thoughts are timely suggestive. His thoughts expose us a psycho-spiritual guide line. It is very worhwhile to pay attention to them in the world of AI. Avove all his thoughts would tell persuasively the indispensibility of struggling (suffering or painfulness) experience as one of key sources for the constrcutive understanding of human life. It should not be ignored or marginalized. It is the unchangelble condition of human life irrespective of the difference among regions, classes, genders, times and so on. It is constant in the East and the West and beyond wherever human life exists!It is a constantl human condition for the authentic improvement of human life. Without it, the true reality of human life will not be revealed.

The age of AI does tend to proclaim this struggling (suffering and painfulness) experience as one of the most useless things. Yes, it should not be slow to recognize the achievement of AI! It has done a great job solving many problems in our current human life. Nevertheless, it is time to reflect the Xunzian virtue of “humility” in the age of AI. It is really time to listen to the silent witness of human histoy that any human life cannot avoid encountering the human struggling experience in its journey in this glove.

金在榮:荀子的思想具有鮮明的時代啟示意義，為我們提供了心靈精神層面的指引，在人工智能時代尤其值得關注。最具說服力的一點是，荀子的思想闡明了“奮斗（苦難或痛苦）經驗”作為建構性理解人類生活的關鍵源泉之一，具有不可替代性。這種經驗不應被忽視或邊緣化，它是人類生活的恒定條件，不受地域、階層、性別、時代等差異的影響。無論在東方還是西方，無論人類生活在何處，它都普遍存在，是人類實現真實自我提升的永恒前提。缺少這一經驗，人類生活的真實本質便無從彰顯。

人工智能時代往往將這種奮斗（苦難與痛苦）經驗視為無用。誠然，我們不應忽視人工智能所取得的成就，它確實為解決當下人類生活的諸多問題作出了巨大貢獻。但與此同時，在人工智能時代，我們亟需重拾荀子所倡導的 “謙遜” 之德，亟需聆聽人類歷史的無聲見證。人生在世，注定無法回避奮斗的歷程。

Q:The International Symposium on Xunzi's Thoughts will be held in Lanling, Shandong on October 29. This grand event has gathered well-known scholars in relevant fields at home and abroad. At the symposium, what phased achievements or core viewpoints on the research of Xunzi's thoughts will you focus on sharing?

中國孔子網：荀子思想國際學術研討會將于10月29日在山東蘭陵召開，此次盛會匯聚了海內外相關領域的知名學者。在研討會上，您將重點分享哪些關于荀子思想研究的階段性成果或核心觀點？

ANS:Personally I am very honored to participate in this important conference. I am going to share my limited research materials in the conference. As you may know, the Joseon Dynasy was maintained for almost more than 500 years (1392-1910) within the framework of Confucian Ideology. As a Korean humble academician, I have a qurioisty why it was collapsed. What was the real problem in the Dynasty? Diverse scholars would have attempted to inquire about them. Whenever I read their researches, I felt something missing though I did not knwo what it would be. Vaguely I felt it. This is my first concern about Xunzi’s thoughts.

In this conference I will attempt to identify the key problem of Joseon Dynasty in relation to Xunzi’s perspective. From the early period of Joseon Dystany, it would be established on the basis of the Neo-Confucian Ideology. The more it would evolve, it would be further emphasied on the ideolgy in every relams of the Dynasty. Nevertheless the reality of the Joseon Dynasty would not correspond fully to the imlication of its main Ideology. Eventually it began to expose radically the discrepancy between the reality of Joseon Dynasty and its Ideology. This discrepancy would be a starting stage for the Dynasty to be collapsed. The dilution state of Aristocrats’ and other classes’ spirit on grapping on the Confucian Ideology in the Dynasty was eventually formed.

If the alternative ideological frame work like the case of Xunzi would be complemented in the Dynasty, the fate of the Dynasty would be very different. But is it posible for Xunzi’s perspective to be adopted as the key ideological source of the Dynasty in the situation of regarding him as a “heretic”? I will share about this hypothetical issue in the conference.

金在榮：我個人深感榮幸能參與此次重要會議，并將在會上分享自己研究淺見。眾所周知，朝鮮王朝（1392-1910 年）以儒家思想為框架存續了近 500 余年。作為一名韓國學者，我一直對其滅亡的原因充滿好奇：這個王朝真正的問題出在哪里？許多學者都曾對此展開探究。我在研讀這些研究成果時，總感覺有所欠缺，雖一時難以明確，但這種直覺始終存在。這便是我關注荀子思想的最初契機。

在此次會議上，我將嘗試從荀子思想的視角剖析朝鮮王朝滅亡的核心問題。朝鮮王朝建立之初便以新儒家思想（理學）為根基，且隨著王朝發展，這一思想在社會各個領域的滲透不斷加深。然而，王朝的現實狀況卻與主流思想的內涵嚴重不符，最終導致思想與現實的矛盾徹底爆發——這正是王朝走向覆滅的開端。此后，無論是貴族階層還是其他社會階層，對儒家思想的堅守精神逐漸淡化。

我不禁思考：若當時朝鮮王朝能以荀子思想作為替代性的思想框架，對主流思想進行補充，其命運是否會截然不同？但問題在于，在荀子被視為 “異端” 的社會背景下，其思想是否有可能成為王朝的核心思想來源？我將在會議上圍繞這一假設性問題展開分享。

Q:With "ritual, Law and Order" as its core theme, this seminar not only echoes the core essence of Xunzi's thoughts but also closely aligns with the practical needs of contemporary social governance. How do you understand the theoretical value and contemporary significance of this theme?

中國孔子網：本次研討會以“禮法與秩序”為核心主題，既呼應了荀子思想的核心要義，也緊扣當代社會治理的現實需求。您如何理解這一主題的理論價值與時代意義？

ANS:Yes, the conference theme, “Ritual, Law and Order” is very relevant to the implementation of contemporary social governance. These three items are not separated but more intertwined and mutually intersperced. Ritual cannot exist without Law and Order. The others would be the same. Xunzi’s case would be very unique for the exposition on the relationship among these three items. In his thoughts, Ritual is not only the source of Law and Order but also expressions of Law and Order in the performing process of Ritual. Ritual cannot be properly or farely implemented without the assistance of law and order. Law and Oder cannot be sustained lively without the ongoing performance of Ritual. They are all circulatively interacting and sustaning each other. This is ongoing process throgh which all human societies could be not only sustained lively but also flourished abundantly.

金在榮:是的，“禮法與秩序” 這一會議主題與當代社會治理的實踐需求高度契合?！岸Y”“法”“秩序”三者并非相互割裂，而是緊密交織、相互滲透的關系。禮的存在離不開法與秩序，法與秩序的存在同樣也離不開禮。荀子對三者關系的闡釋極具獨特性。在他的思想中，禮不僅是法與秩序的源頭，在禮的踐行過程中，也蘊含著法與秩序的內涵。若無法律與秩序的支撐，禮便無法得到恰當、公正的推行；反之，若缺乏禮的持續踐行，法律與秩序也難以保持活力。三者形成循環互動、相互維系的關系，正是通過這一動態過程，人類社會才能實現存續與繁榮。

Q:As the hometown of Xunzi, Lanling has deeply explored Xunzi's thought of "Emphasizing rites and law" by integrating it with village conventions, thus developing a new path for rural governance that conforms to local realities. From the perspective of religious psychology, is there a mutually reinforcing psychological mechanism between the people's recognition of "ritual" and their compliance with "law"? What reference value does this psychological mechanism hold for rural governance and even grassroots social governance?

中國孔子網：作為荀子故里，蘭陵深度挖掘荀子“隆禮重法”思想，與村規民約緊密融合并付諸實踐，開拓出契合本地實情的鄉村治理新路徑。從宗教心理學視角來看，民眾對“禮”的認同與對“法”的遵守之間，是否存在相互促進的心理機制？這種心理機制對鄉村治理乃至基層社會治理有何借鑒價值？

ANS:As I mentioned in the above, rites and law cannot exist respectively without other. They are all the times intertwined and interrelated. Rites are the healthy resources for law to be implemented more harmoniously or properly. Law cannot exist humanely or farefully if it would not be related to rites. Law should be checked about itself with the assistance of rites whether it would forget the fundamental value or purpose of its existence for human life. At the same time, rites should also be checked whether they would be adquately performed in relation to the proceedure.

Generallly rites and law would be rooted into the human’s relation to the world of spirits beyond this world. But, in the case of Xunzi, the meaning of rites and law are profoundly fresh and differnt. He did not have much interest whether rites and law would be related to the world of spirits and its influence to the human world. His keen concern is the affective function of rites and law themselves in the human life. Especially, he paid attention to the emotional dimension with that the proceedure of rites and law would stimulate or touch regularly the inner aspect of human life. The human life in community, whether it would follow the transcendent or not, needs “a washing or healing place” for the resolution of diverse anxieties and difficuties in the commuity participant’s mind and heart.

In this sense, Xunzi’s insights are explicity relevant to the context of village. Rites and law are the foundational value for the flourshing of village life and its sustenance. Rites and law should not be perceived as the past or the season-off components but as the living fountain revealing still a distinct efficasy even in the contemporary governance of the villiage life. Actually if they function well, they are the champion markers for the sound and healthy governance of the village life. The only difference between the living village and the dead depends upon the magnitude of emotional touch that rites and law stimulate to the members of the villiage for the bonding sustenance of their community. In other words, the living village itself is spiritual/religious community emboding solidarity and fraternity!

金在榮:如我之前所言，禮與法相輔相成，始終相互交織、密不可分。禮是法律得以更和諧、更恰當推行的有益助力；若脫離禮的精神，法的推行便難以體現人文關懷與公平正義。法需要借助禮的精神來審視自身，避免偏離其為人類生活服務的根本價值與目的；與此同時，禮的踐行也需要依據法的規范流程進行檢驗。

通常而言，禮與法的根源可追溯至人類與超驗精神世界的關聯，但荀子對禮與法的闡釋卻呈現出全新的深刻內涵。他并不關注禮與法是否與精神世界相關聯，以及這種關聯對人類世界的影響，而是聚焦于禮與法本身在人類生活中所發揮的情感功能。他尤其注重禮與法的踐行過程，認為這一過程能持續觸動人類內心的情感層面。無論是信奉超驗力量與否，社群生活中的個體都需要一個 “凈化與療愈的空間”，以消解內心的焦慮與困境。

從這個角度而言，荀子的思想與鄉村治理語境高度契合。禮與法是鄉村存續與繁榮的核心價值根基，不應被視為過時或階段性的元素，即便在當代鄉村治理中，它們依然具有鮮活的生命力與獨特效用。事實上，若禮與法能充分發揮作用，便是鄉村治理健康有序的最佳標志。鄉村是充滿活力還是停滯僵化，關鍵在于禮與法對村民情感的觸動程度——這種觸動維系著社群的凝聚力。換言之，富有活力的鄉村本身就是一個蘊含團結與友愛精神的精神社群。

Q:As an important spiritual resource in the East Asian cultural circle, Xunzi's thoughts also exert a profound influence on Korean society. Combining the cultural context of South Korea, could you talk about whether Xunzi's thoughts have extended from the field of academic research to the levels of folk life and social governance? In your view, which core concepts in Xunzi's thoughts can provide practical and effective theoretical support and practical paths for contemporary local governance?

中國孔子網：荀子思想作為東亞文化圈的重要精神資源，在韓國社會也有著深遠影響。您能否結合韓國的文化語境，談談荀子思想是否已從學術研究領域延伸至民間生活與社會治理層面？在您看來，荀子思想中的哪些核心理念能夠為當代地方治理提供切實有效的理論支撐與實踐路徑？

ANS:Xunzi’s thoughts are not sufficiently researched yet in Korea. Xunzian scholars are not main stream of Confucianism according to my understanding. Relatively they are very few comparing to the Mongzian and other scholars. However, recently young schoalrs trained in Korea or other foreign academic institures are begining to pay attention actively to the importance of Xunzi’s thoughts in contemporary society. Their methodological issues and theoretical perspectives are quite diverses. Some are explicitly expositing it in terms of analytical philosophy and some more comparatively in relation to the various displines such as religious studies, philosophy, history, literature, education, psychology, politics, social welfare, of humanities and social sciences.

Personally I have thought that Xunzi’s thoughts should be seriously revalorized in the contemporary scholarship of Confucianism in Korea. One thing should be revisited in Xinzi’s thoughts. The most important one is the resotoration of the ritual dimension in contemporary civil society. To Xunzi, ritual is not one of necessary components for the sustenance of the human life and its community. It is not only the foundation of other components but also a spiritual matrix for the flurishing human life and its community. It provides a higher view point or platform for the self-correction process of the human life and its community. Still these insights in Xunizi’s thoughts would be valuable in contemporary society in Korea!

金在榮：目前，荀子思想在韓國的研究尚不充分。在我看來，韓國儒學研究界中，荀子研究學者并非主流，與孟子及其他儒家學者的研究者相比，數量相對稀少。不過，近年來，一批在韓國本土或海外學術機構接受過訓練的青年學者，開始積極關注荀子思想在當代社會的重要價值，他們的研究方法與理論視角也呈現出多元化特征：部分學者運用分析哲學的方法對荀子思想進行闡釋，另有學者則將其與宗教學、哲學、歷史學、文學、教育學、心理學、政治學、社會福利等人文社科領域的不同學科進行比較研究。

我個人認為，在當代韓國儒學研究中，荀子思想的價值亟待重估，其中最值得關注的一點，便是在當代公民社會中重建 “禮” 的維度。在荀子看來，禮不僅是維系人類生活與社群存續的必要元素，更是其他一切社會元素的根基，是人類生活與社群實現繁榮的精神母體。它為人類生活與社群的自我修正提供了更高層面的視角與平臺。即便在當代韓國社會，荀子的這些思想洞見依然具有重要價值。

Q:The academic community generally holds that Xunzi's thoughts possess prominent practicality and strong practical guiding significance. How do you view the potential of this trait for cross-civilization communication in the context of globalization? Combining your academic practice of promoting the integration of Korean and East Asian themes into the global discourse, in which aspects do you think efforts should be strengthened in the interpretation and dissemination of Xunzi's thoughts to make them an important topic in global academic dialogue?

中國孔子網：學界普遍認為荀子思想具有突出的實踐性、極強的現實指導性。您如何看待這種特質在全球化背景下的跨文明傳播潛力？結合您推動韓國及東亞主題融入全球話語的學術實踐，您認為荀子思想要成為全球學術對話的重要議題，需在哪些方面加強闡釋與傳播？

ANS:I think that Xunzi’s thoughts would be contributing two things for cross-civilization communication in our current times. First of all, they warn us not to fall into the disputes of the abstract conceptualism for the development of cross-civilization communication skills or grammers. Instead, his thoughts suggested a realistic priciple that cross-civilization communication should be fundamentally based upon the awarnesse to our common humanity and its real experience irrespective of the difference of cultures and belief systems. In this sense, Xunzi was reasonable and rational. Second, his thoughts did not emphasize the normativity of classicalism ignoring its contextual sensibilities and its application into others. This aspect would be a good guideline for the implementaion of a skillful dialogic grammer in one’s involvement with cross- civilization communication with others.

Concerning about the interpretaion and the dissemination of Xunzi’s thoughts in a global academic community, I think the most distintive part of his thoughts would be the emotional efficacy of rituals to the human subjects and their communities. This point should be expanded deeply on the basis of the critical examination on his works. In additon, it should be compared to contemporary reseaches on ritual and emotion. In this comparision, Xunzi’s creative insights would be further discovered. The more we compare his thoughts to contemporary researches, the more we come to realize that Xunzi would be one of the ancient defending champions even on our contemporary academic “ring.”

金在榮：我認為，在當下的文明交流互鑒中，荀子思想可發揮兩方面的重要作用。首先，它警示我們，在構建文明交流的方法與規范時，不應陷入抽象概念的爭論。荀子思想提出了一條現實原則：無論文化與信仰體系存在何種差異，文明交流的根本基礎，應是對人類共同本質及其真實經驗的認知。從這一角度而言，荀子的思想體現出理性與合理性。其次，荀子思想不推崇脫離現實語境、忽視應用價值的古典規范主義，這一點可為開展靈活有效的文明對話提供重要指引。

關于荀子思想在全球學術界的闡釋與傳播，我認為其最獨特的價值在于“禮”對個體及社群所產生的情感效用。我們應在深入研讀荀子著作的基礎上，對這一觀點進行深度拓展，并將其與當代關于禮儀與情感的研究成果進行比較。通過這種比較，荀子思想中的創新性洞見將得到進一步發掘。我們對二者的比較越深入，就越能意識到：即便在當代學術“競技場”上，荀子依然是古代思想家中的佼佼者。

Q:Against the backdrop of current civilizational conflicts and order reconstruction, what unique theoretical value do the humanistic nature of "rule by ritual" and the normative nature of "rule of law" have for the coexistence among civilizations? What enlightenment do they offer for solving the problems of "value conflicts" and "lack of rules" in global governance?

中國孔子網：在當前文明沖突與秩序重構的背景下，“禮治”的人文性與“法治”的規范性，對文明間共處有何獨特理論價值？對解決全球治理中的“價值沖突”與“規則缺失”問題，又具有怎樣的啟示作用？

ANS:Ritual and law are very necessary for the sustenance of the human society. It does not matter whether it would be small or big. Every human society would have been evolved in accordance with the “ruling by ritual” and the “rule of law”. They are fudamental backbones for the flourshing development of our human society. In analogy, the function of “ruling by ritual” is like that of mother. It plays an archetypal role to restore or nurture the frail part of the human society. At the same time, the human society needs the “rule of law” for the implementation of its justice and fairness . Its role is like that of father. It is more concerned about fair judgment and decision rather than the mothering of the human society.

For the healty society,the “ruling by ritual” and the “rule of law” should be functioned properly. If the former would be too much emphasized, the society could not overcome its challenges concretely. In reverse, if the latter would be emphasized, the society would be like a harsh, cold battleground losing our humanity. Recently our current world expose a live testmony about it! In the name of justice and fairness, so many ugly things happens.

In this unbalansed situation, it seems to be very conventional to hear the phrases of “ rule of law” in the diverse daily news and social media covering political agenda, global conflics, international relations, trade war and so on. However, it is very rare to hear about the phrases of the “ruling by ritual”in world news and social media.

The proprtionality of the two pillars have been extremely unbalanced. The fathering dimension of the “rule of law” is thickly spreading in our contemporary world. Meanwhile, the mothering dimensioin for the restoration of the fraility of our human condition would have been weakened in our global world excep for a few cases. If this dimension would not be fully recovered, it would not be possible to materialize our human solidarity for the implementaion of the global governance. It is really high time to reappropriate this dimension!

金在榮：禮與法是維系人類社會存續的核心要素，無論社會規模大小，任何人類社會的演進都離不開“禮治”與“法治” 的共同作用——二者是人類社會實現繁榮發展的根本支柱。若以比喻說明：“禮治”的功能如同母親，扮演著原型性角色，負責修復與滋養社會脆弱的部分；而“法治”則承擔著維護社會公平正義的職責，其功能如同父親，更側重于作出公正的評判與決策，而非對社會進行“滋養”。

一個健康的社會，需要“禮治”與“法治”的協同發力、均衡運作。若過度強調“禮治”，社會將難以切實應對各類挑戰；反之，若一味偏重 “法治”，社會將淪為冰冷嚴苛的 “戰場”，喪失人文溫度。當下的世界正印證著這一點：在 “公平正義” 的名義下，諸多丑惡現象不斷上演。

在這種失衡的格局下，“法治”一詞頻繁出現在各類新聞報道與社交媒體中，涉及政治議題、全球沖突、國際關系、貿易爭端等諸多領域；而 “禮治” 一詞卻在國際輿論場中極為罕見。

這兩大支柱的平衡已被嚴重打破：“法治”所代表的“父性” 維度在當代世界不斷擴張，而“禮治”所代表的、用于修復人類生存脆弱性的“母性”維度，除少數地區外，在全球范圍內已大幅弱化。若這一維度無法得到充分恢復，人類便難以凝聚共識，全球治理的目標也無從實現。當下，正是重拾 “禮治” 維度的關鍵時刻！